This might sound weird but I think it’s true.
A man can be big and strong and impressive, but in the nude that doesn’t matter. The only thing that seems to matter (for those who don’t understand naturism) are the bits of a person that can be seen that are usually hidden.
Indeed, these bits are genitals and female breasts. Naturists know that people come in all shapes and sizes. Being naked, there’s hardly a way around that unless you’re visually handicapped, and even then a person is probably aware of that. (If you have other experiences, please share, I’m genuinely curious.)
These are the ‘problem parts’ for the non-understanding ones. For the people who lived in the repressed environment of clothialism, so to speak.
For me this is another indication that the whole clothing-obsessed world is wrong. The clothialists get further and further away from nature and all things natural, including their own bodies. I have heard stories about people who are so ‘body conscious’ that they don’t even dare to be nude in their own home, when they’re alone and no one can see them.
Isn’t that sad?
People who shower in their underwear. How awful to even consider that.
And for exactly those same repressed people, the size of a penis, a behind or some breasts matters. As if that defines a person. Certifiably bonkers, I tell you. That is now how naturists define people. Because, in naturism, size doesn’t matter. I know big people and tiny people, and they’re beautiful people. I know “beautiful” people who are downright ugly on the inside.
Size doesn’t matter.
People are people.
Do you agree?
I agree completely but I would be lying if even after growing up a naturist that I am perfectly rid and free from any form of body negativity. Finally enough those negative thoughts only seem to occur when I am alone, they never occur when i am mingling and hanging out with the naturist/nudist community.
We all have sort of an illusion that society is totally to blame but in the end, we can be our own worst critics. I spent my primary school years almost exclusively naked at home and my peers back then did not inflict any societal woes on me. The biggest challenge for my disposition came on entering secondary school and allowing that doubt to slip in and then swirl around in my mind; I became my harshest critic.
If I had been a lone naturist without several communities to ground me or family to help me when I had self doubt, I would have probably succumbed to the whims of the normies. That desire and need to fit in is so very strong, instinctual and the will to be able to look in the mirror and say “I love you” is very fragile.
We live in a society that glorifies violence and drug use but condemns someone who wants to live their life free as taboo and that societal fabric is delicately interwoven through fear and religion (see control) and if we look through the past decades or centuries, we can see that society is rarely right.
Sorry if I sound a bit like a naturist-extremist lol just, at times it feels that way
Body size and shape can be a factor in overall physical health, but apart from that it shouldn’t matter and in naturist communities it tends to matter less than elsewhere.
Then again, looking at the promotional material and other publications of naturist organisations and businesses, you’d think that every naturist is about 25 years old, athletic, and 90% of us are female.
Indeed. That is part of the ‘issue’. For those inside naturism, this is a moot point. The promos are there to pull people in, and using old or wrinkled people won’t get many, because young, fit people don’t identify with them. Unfortunately, using young, fit people won’t either, because old, wrinkled people don’t identify with them.
I agree, but a major problem I see is that attempts to encourage a guy to try nudism nearly always have one or more of the following:
– attempts to reframe objective data as subjective.
– suggestions that what constitutes an ‘acceptable’ body came from his imagination.
– that what is a normal penis size came from his imagination.
– that what is normal/acceptable about any aspect of his body came from his imagination.
– that he cooked up the idea that ‘size matters’ on his own.
I could go on and on without repeating but I think you get the idea. It seems that when women state they don’t measure up to some artificial idea of beauty it’s pointed out fairly quickly that the woman is right and that the standard they’re comparing themselves to is unhealthy and/or unrealistic and the problem is the standard, not the woman. OTOH, men are much less likely to be told that they’re measuring themselves against an unrealistic/unhealthy standard and on top of that, that their failure to live up to it is subjective.
I.e. Women get told, “You’re comparing yourself against something stupid. You need to stop buying into the stupidity.” Men get told they’re imagining everything.
I’m not sure I’m making any sense here. Body image is one area where women are way ahead of men.
Yes and no. Women also have a lot more ground to recover as they are coming from a far less realistic body image than men do.
Yes, men have a negative body image ingrained in them, but it’s not a body image that’s actually harmful to their health.
While men are told they should have a sixpack and a penis the size of their forearm or they’re sissies (and what’s wrong with that anyway), both are clearly ludicrous and most men know it if they give it a bit of thought.
Women are told they have to look like either anorexic fashion models or overly curvacious porn actresses (depending on their chosen celebrities). Both are at least potentially attainable, but only at great damage to their health and way too many of them choose to accept that damage in the form of eating disorders, botox injections, and plastic surgery with leaky implants.
and what do all the things you have both mentioned have in common? the tribal need we have to follow the herd and conform to social and societal standards. Some trends are easier to dismiss than others, like i for one have no desire to try and make my butt as big as possible nor do i want to wear a corset to have the tiniest waist possible. What has taken the longest time has been true proper self confidence. I am proud of my wonky boobs, my nose which is not fashion catalogue perfect, my freckles and boney knees but even so my journey keeps going. Women and girls do have a harder time starting naturism through fear and worry bout safety and stuff but i guess for guys its more psychological but i wonder how much of that for guys would vanish if societal requirements were ignored. Guys seem to tend to be like..more kind to each other and stuff, more friendly.
True, I didn’t intend to imply that the work was done or even close to it for women in publicizing how unrealistic/unhealthy the ‘ideal’ bodies are. However, I see how it could be read that way. Perhaps it’d be more accurate to say that work started earlier.
I see another lack of clarity on my part. 90+% of everything I’ve every read regarding body dysmorphia in men has the (usually) unspoken assumptions that 1) the man’s body has no actual physical differences and 2) the notion that there’s something wrong with his body (such as in the bullet points) have no external sources but are cooked up by the man himself. Personally, I’m flummoxed as to how something so self-evidently not true came to be such an integral part of the body dysmorphia narrative.
I hope I’ve cleared things up a bit.
Hehe and I guess my question mark bit could have been interpreted wrong too sorry! I meant that the points you and JTW made have things in common which is the tribal need we have to follow the herd and conform to social and societal standards as well as our susceptibility to fall victim to others and our own dysmorphia.
When I wrote that originally everything made sense but on rereading i was like woops!
I’ve had too many conversations about what matters over my lifetime. So many people have trouble understanding our way of life because they were taught that “nude is lewd” and those “bits” should never be shown. They can’t imagine not having a clothing barrier to nature. And they are afraid they won’t “measure up” to their own imagined image of what you “should” look like nude. I’ve almost given up on trying to convince them they’re missing out on the wonders of living nude.
I have the body that shows that I have had a well-lived life. I’m not concerned about showing the scars, the extra roll at the waist, or the size of any part of me. They ask “how can you live like that? Aren’t you afraid others will judge you?”
Quite frankly, no. I’m not afraid of what others think about me, my body, or how we live. Size definitely doesn’t matter to us. What matters is how you treat others and accept others without judgment.
Exactly. The outside will always change. The inside is what counts so much more.
Yup.
I’m starting to come out as transgender, something I’ve been feeling more and more pressing on me for over a decade and is now coming to the boiling point.
Doesn’t get more radical than that when you’re thinking of body dysmorphia…
I am however not one of those people who “hate” their body per se. I’d like it to be different, but I’m willing to take the time to go slow on it, rather than rush things (which probably wouldn’t be a good idea given my overall health anyway).
And yes, I disliked being morbidly obese and the physical characteristics that come with that.
But had it been merely cosmetic I’d not have worried about it. The reasons I went with a radical diet and increased exercise regimen were because it was destroying my liver and kidneys, and the diabetes was literally killing me (which ended up with me nearly dying from it last year…).
And still I’m taking flak from “body acceptance” types for trying to lose weight… As if losing weight to get back to a healthy body is the same as being anorexic or something. It’s disgusting how people don’t seem capable of drawing boundaries.
Good grief! I’m glad you’re still around and having the good sense to work towards a ‘safe body to be in’ slowly. That tells me you’re a good person on the inside, one with a brain that works and the mental power to use it.
I’ve seen “beautiful” people with a mind that is lower than a gutter. That taught me a bit or two about humans.
I don’t know you in person, JTW, but I’m glad you’re around, and I hope you continue to do so.
Thank you. Yes, I’m still around and that episode was a major wakeup call to get my health under control that’d been going downhill for several years (in no small part due to covid lockdown restrictions).
Binge reading your books at times helped keep me sane too 🙂
I’m very happy you managed to spot the problem and also to turn the tide.
If you need any help, peptalk or support in going or keep going uphill, let us know.
And thank you for that comment about the books. That is special. That is more than what I could have hoped for.
Seriously…
>And still I’m taking flak from “body acceptance” types for trying to lose weight…
the body acceptance movement is anything but its namesake, just another bit of that societal fabric smothering us but in the end the emotion driving it is fear and the desire to be accepted in this closed off world we live in with a subtle hint of lazyness around the edges.
Normally i would dismiss this sort of stuff as a “you do you” kind of thing, like “to each their own” but you’re definitely doing the right thing @JTW and its good you’re not letting anyone dictate to you what should be done or not.
We only get one body, its ours, no one elses, all ours <3
Very well put, Elise.
Your last paragraph….. Wow! May I suggest that people who conflate “getting back to a healthy body” with being anorexic likely have a whole bunch of OTHER problems/confusions/misunderstandings so you might want to take their comments with a grain of salt or two……
@Elise
“…the tribal need we have to follow the herd and conform to social and societal standards.”
You raise an excellent point. My perspective might be a bit skewed. For reasons I’ll likely never know, several obvious orthopedic issues went unaddressed when I was younger. Therefore, conforming to societal standards of acceptability was never an option for me. So that’s given me a detachment that very few people have.
Although I no longer care, it took a while to reach the level of acceptance I currently have. Of course, having doctors tell me that none of my issues were ever my perception helped that acceptance process along. I couldn’t possibly count the number of complete strangers who’ve made a point of informing me that I had no business taking my shirt off at the beach. More generally, I don’t think I’ve ever taken my shirt off in a textile environment without getting at least one overt negative reaction. So….. ummmmm…….. yeah. This might be why I have a tendency to overreact to the notion that people cooked up all by themselves their ‘need’ to hide their bodies.
I wonder if for you the hugely different contrast from the naturist/nudist community and the normie community makes things more difficult. Going from being accepted to having the negative experiences you’ve said must be really quite confronting and upsetting. In a strange way both for guys and girls we equally have our positives and difficulties when faced with these situations. I can easily argue that for me growing up with multiple nudist communities I was accepted immediately and my gender may have a role in that. Conversely, being a female naturist has more (potential) dangers present than being a male naturist. In a way those situations seem to be reversed for guys.. less physical danger (though perhaps more social danger by normies accusing nudist men of exhibitionism or the like) but potentially a less welcome feeling, because the community is not a 50/50 split.
That being said all of the communities I have been a part of have thankfully been welcome of everyone, young and old, male and female, short, tall, slender or portly; boney knees, wonky boobs and all.
I have lived in a naturist fashion since I was five but it’s only been within the last few weeks that my friend circle all know I am happily naturist, which is just one aspect of me. All but one of them took this happily but that one is slowly turning around, just because its so foreign to her. My best friend has known for some months now and she’s even embraced the lifestyle herself and found a new well of self confidence she didn’t know she had. So thats a positive experience.
At the same time, now that its more public knowledge with my peer group, there has been some negative interactions with normies who are stuck in the mindset of nudity always being sexual so I have had plenty of brainless guys (who would take one step on a nude beach then run away in fear) proposition me. The funny thing is the attempt at bullying hasn’t worked e.g “Oh You’re a nudist you like to be nude hahaha” well, yeah…you’re stating the obvious, grow up!
Like I said though, the self imposed dysmorphia is just one aspect, a big aspect but just one. Paul has talked about society and societal pressure in previous posts in depth and that’s unfortunately the one thing that is not exactly within our power to control… good naturist communities and blogs like this one go a long, long way to developing the culture we can show the world and lead the way but… “you can lead a horse to water, but you can not make them drink”
I hope your future experiences become more positive and you find support in the community.
I think a bit of backstory might be in order. Aside from the ortho issues, I have no depth perception so anything involving a ball in the air, not to mention a whole bunch of other stuff, were automatic no-goes. My right shoulder only rotates half way so throwing a ball properly was never a possibility. Also, I think I was born without the part of the brain that processes music bec I’m arhythmic and atonal. I also learned to read at a young age so that made me a brainiac. Put it all together and fitting in was never an option…. ever. I had a group of friends I was happy with and we were the eccentrics who were tolerated by the normies. So when the ortho issues became more pronounced as puberty set in, it was just one more item on the list of reasons why I don’t fit in. It was all just part of the landscape. I don’t think fitting in really ever occurred to me. It really wasn’t as traumatic as I’ve been told it sounds. My friends were always fine with all of my ‘issues’ mentioned above and were always supportive. The problem was the rest of world (with my parents leading the way) insisting I was somehow orchestrating all of the foregoing just to annoy them. When my friends & I were old enough to go out independently and have our own social life my attitude quickly became “OMG! Why is my hunchback/lack of rhythm/whatever so important to you, a complete stranger?! It has no affect on you. Why are you acting like it does???” Looking back, I’m sure my disdain for the people making those comments was rather obvious and that didn’t exactly calm the waters.
Over the years I slowly picked up medical confirmations that not a single one of my “psychosomatic” issues ever had a psychosomatic component; they were all 100% physical all along. It sounds silly but getting outside confirmation from credentialed professionals that my friends & I were right about everything the entire time was very freeing. So when I got invited by a friend to a nudist social at a nearby bar I said “Why not?” ….. and the rest is history. It’s sort of funny. Gay male nudists are by far the most accepting group I’ve encountered in my life in terms of body differences. Except as someone’s guest, I haven’t been to a textile beach or pool in over 10 years. Life is so much easier. Of course, I live near a city where there are multiple nude, male events weekly: Bridge classes, drawing sessions, yoga classes, etc. So that insulates me somewhat from normie-induced drama.
Questions? Ask away!
the important thing is that from what i have read from you now and in the past in other comments, i see someone who did not end up falling into a pit of darkness of hatred for the world, like, of giving up completely.. and having sort of found a “place in the sun” with your nudist group, you’ve found a way to give textiled society a lil bit of a middle finger and reclaim yourself with people who treat you like a person instead of a problem or burden walkin round with their blinders on.
I am a lot younger than you (best 2 not say online..) and i have been through some rather life threatening things medically where if my Dad had listened to the initial doctors advice, i would be very much dead rn. 2nd and 3rd opinions can change your world completely..
Your story is like a cautionary tale of just how powerful those around us can be, not just at dictating how we think of ourselves but how we allow them to shape our destiny unless we take the reins and say “nuh uh..”.. just how powerful society can be. What is important to remember though is when the world let you down, your friends were there for you, which means that no matter what, you are loved.
and now, because of your journey, you’re bulletproof. Sure there might be some scratches and dings every now and then but you got this..
(sorry for all the horse terms, horse girl hazards 😀 )
Thanks, that makes me feel pretty good. Yeah, I’ve kind of found my “place in the sun” and I think I’m fairly bulletproof in a number of ways. And I hadn’t thought of it that way, but it is something of a cautionary tale: That something is labelled ‘good’ isn’t always a reason to think it is…..
Anyway, thanks again.
The portrayal as all (especially single) men as sexual predators and therefore shunning them isn’t just happening outside the naturist community.
I’ve investigated joining a naturist group here in my area for years, and given up on it as not a single one will accept single men as members (and most not even as visitors when escorted by members) on the ground that “we want to keep out perverts and predators”.
Single women are never a problem though…
must admit i have also seen men by themselves approach one of my communities to join and if not for me vouching for him (one i knew) he was going to be shunned as well because there are “tourists”, naturists in wolfs lack of clothing so to speak who have other agendas in mind. Its the catch-22..
the only advice i could offer is rather than trying to join any particular group or club outright, to go to a naturist/nudist retreat, generally one you pay to visit like a hotel/resort of sorts and get to talking to people, get known by people many of whom will be members of various groups….sort of like networking in a way. Sucks that it can be that way for guys, i feel very privileged to have never had that trouble growing up in the community but where theres a will theres a way.
I became a nudist (and then also a naturist) 5 years ago, so I can’t say I have great experience, nor that I grew up in a naturist / nudist environment. Naturism came to me as a gift from another naturist, and it was the best gift I could ever get, even if I didn’t realize it at first. I can understand people’s fears because they were my fears, and stripping naked can be upsetting because we are unusual and we are not used to it (even I was not used to it) and I was lucky that the well-being and naturist freedom infected me immediately and prompted me to undress still. However over time I realized that naturism was freeing me not only of clothes but of shame towards myself, I realized (in the early days) how sad it was not being able to undress without having erections. This is something no one ever asks. Why couldn’t I just be naked without connecting it to sex? Only in that moment did I realize that I was not free and how positive and good nudism was. It is difficult to describe the discomfort I felt in not being able to undress freely, without the body associating nudity with sex and all this thanks to the textile society and the distorted way in which I had grown up. But I only realized the problem after trying nudism, not before. Nudism freed me from the problem, allowing me to enjoy my body without fear and without morbidity, increased my self-esteem, taught me to appreciate the body in an integral way, made me free and naked and nudity brought me very close to nature, it is difficult to say the beauty of being naked in a wood or other natural place. For me and my previous textile life, it was a real positive transformation, I can’t understand how many people prefer chains to freedom. Chains well hidden under clothing.
After becoming a nudist myself, I too felt the desire to help others free themselves and help them receive the gift I received 5 years ago. It is not easy to free them, because the chains I have described can only be felt by trying nudism and it is not easy to make them try it. I managed to convince only two people and after trying nudism their life has changed radically, now they too live naked and are gradually getting closer to nature. For me it was a huge satisfaction. In any case, life as a nudist is not easy (at least here in Italy), nudity outside the home is considered “obscene acts in a public place”.
Is nudity an obscene act? I am speechless. I can’t go to textile beaches anymore, I hate swimsuit and don’t want to wear it. Nudist beaches are very few and far away. Some places such as rivers or streams surrounded by nature are frequented by naturists but are not recognized as places for naturists and therefore are illegal. So in addition to the daily nudity at home, finding nudist beaches is difficult and requires long journeys, not to mention that the authorized beaches are very few. There are other unauthorized places but there is the risk of a very high fine (a few thousand euros). The positive note is that here in Italy the temperatures allow you to remain naked at home for 8-9 months a year.
That is an awesome account, Frederico. I’m glad you found your way into naturism.
Having such good weather for so long is also fantastic, I’m glad for you!
Italian laws really need an overhaul. Simple nudity is not obscene, unless the people who draw up such a law have obscene thoughts regarding nudity.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your story. 🙂
a wee bit strange that the country of Rome, of amazing statues and time honoured traditions and of a relaxed culture has in modern times moved so conservatively. Think i can speak for everyone when i say i hope in the future some sanity prevails.
Italy is a very strict Catholic country overall, complete with the moralistic attitude towards nudity that comes with that.
Parts of the Netherlands are very similar, to the point where every year almost there are calls to parliament to ban bikinis because they’re “immoral” and “sexualise women”. Some go so far as to calling for requiring what amounts to full length dresses for women on the beach, not dissimilar to what used to be worn in the very early 20th century there…
Hardline Christians have, I have noticed, very similar ideas about how women (and men) should dress and behave to hardline Muslims, main difference is the name of the deity.
If you look beneath the veneer of how the rethoric is phrased, the religions aren’t all that different at core, probably because of their shared Abrahamic background. Christianity has just matured more, mellowed over the centuries, at least at the surface.
A couple of thoughts/realizations that have helped me keep perspective:
– Staying home and not attending a social event (nudist or not) on a Saturday night will not leave me with a straighter spine come Sunday morning. Therefore, there’s no reason to stay home.
– A substantial minority of the population (I’m guessing about 1/3) see what they want/need to see when they look at something/someone. People who want/need to perceive me as short will do so. People who want to perceive my feet as narrow will do so…… And neither the fact that I’m a tad over 6′ tall (184cm) nor that my shoe width is EEEEE will factor into their judgements. Yes, both have actually happened. My point is that someone telling you some body part is ‘wrong’ in some way is likely to be untrue in addition to being irrelevant. So that’s one more reason to ignore judgemental people.
– You know how some people have a fixed mental image about how something is/works and refuse to update it when new information becomes available? That type of reality denial has a name, “Semmelweis Effect” or “Semmelweis Reflex”
if i am commenting too much Paul, please let me know! just really glad to see a lot of interaction on this post. Its great to hear from people!
>My point is that someone telling you some body part is ‘wrong’ in some way is likely to be untrue in addition to being irrelevant
i am actually weirdly happy if someone points out something about me is different. My hair, my nose, my body… just means (pride can be bad ofc) i am being noticed but also specifically their comment whether polite or impolite points out something blatantly obvious that we in the naturist/nudist community know very well: everybody is different! and differences should be celebrated because god forbid we were all the same, how utterly boring would that be!
The little trick is to help change minds from differences being negative, to being positive and that can be an uphill battle of course. Perceptions of beauty are inherently tied to sexuality though in my experience, and yes i am a zoomer but i do have experiences!…. in my experience the most intimate aspects of a person are not their body parts but their mind. Naturism/nudism helps shed the physical and lets us (when we’re interacting with like minded peeps) focus on whats more important, the person. Sure the sexual aspect or aspects of desire can be there if one chooses to….in my case its like a switch of sorts, a making an actual conscious choice, and amazingly enough i have found myself drawn to people who do not fit the societal “mold” of “beautiful” even though as people, they are priceless.
Now i do not eschew clothes completely. For me they have a time and place and i enjoy some clothes for some occasions but the freedom of being nude is priceless to me also and i know some people who look at me would think i have things easy because i do somewhat fit that yuck societal mold of pretty, but that does not change what i am saying, in fact this winter i will be happily putting on a bit of weight like a seal hehe fully comfortable and fully confident!